Why Most Practices Need Marketing Leadership

Josh Suchanek

I would say that the average practice does not have an in-house, like, marketing leader. They might have a marketing coordinator who posts on their social media and sends their email blasts. Um, and maybe does a lot of intake from, you know, companies like Influx of understanding what's going on with SEO or paid search. Not a lot of subject matter experts, like, owning a marketing role in a practice. And that's where the fractional CMO work comes into play.

Max Baybak

We're back here at the Aesthetic Meeting in Boston, and I'm here with Josh Suchanek, marketing director of Skytale. Josh, how you doing?

Josh Suchanek

Can't complain, man. We're in Boston. It's, uh, 75 and sunny today. Like, it is a beautiful day to be inside a convention center.

Max Baybak

Yeah, yeah, I know. We get it. We'll get out of here soon. Hopefully there'll be a little bit of sunlight left. It is a beautiful day though. I ran out for lunch and it's gorgeous. Way better than the last few dreary days that we had here.

Josh Suchanek

It was very cold yesterday.

Max Baybak

Yes. But the show's been good for you so far?

Josh Suchanek

The show's been incredible. Obviously, it's, uh, always great to connect with old friends, make new ones. Um, you know, I spoke earlier today and, uh, you know, whenever you're on a panel, it's kind of a, you know, dealer's choice of questions. And so, you know, Q&A is always a lot of fun. So, I've really enjoyed that.

Max Baybak

Good, good. Well, we work together a lot, and I want to talk to our listenership here a little bit about some things that you're working on. But first, just for anyone who's not familiar, um, obviously Skytale has — and we were just talking about this — has a couple components to what it does, but one side of that is management consulting. And within that, there's operational consulting, there's fractional CFO services, and then there's fractional CMO or marketing consulting services that you provide, right? Will you tell us a little bit about that?

Josh Suchanek

That is correct. Um, so, as a marketing director, I lead our marketing advisory practice. And so, I'm brought in in a couple of ways. Uh, primarily working with aesthetics practices, whether it be, uh, surgical, non-surgical aesthetics, wellness, uh, cosmetic dermatology. Um, all areas of focus that I work on.

I'm generally brought in to assess and diagnose marketing function. So, everyone spends money — most everyone spends money on marketing their practice — but not everybody has a — they have, you know, inklings or theories about the way that their marketing is running, but sometimes they're looking for an outside, you know, third-party expert to come in and just audit their current, like, marketing plan and make sure that, you know, it's like a white spaces document. Like, "Hey, I'm investing in these areas. Are those the correct areas to be investing in? Are there missed opportunities that I'm not seeing because I'm just not asking the right questions or working with the right people?"

So, I get brought in to do marketing assessments, uh, primarily. And from that, when I'm building a strategic marketing plan, um, along with any plan, if you hand someone a 30-40 page document that quantifies their problems, they look through it and the first thing they ask is, "Well, who's going to help me with all this? Like, who does this for me?" And I would say that the average practice does not have an in-house, like, marketing leader.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

Like, you know, they might have a marketing coordinator who posts on their social media and sends their email blasts, um, and maybe does a lot of intake from, you know, companies like Influx of understanding what's going on with SEO or paid search, but not a lot of subject matter experts, like, owning a marketing role in a practice. And that's where the fractional CMO work comes into play, is we actually are a representation and a liaison from the practice and the third party or internal team members they utilize for marketing.

And we make sure that all of the work that's being done is in alignment with the strategic plan that we've put forth and that the dollars being invested are being actualized. That's, like, the overarching outcome of what we try to achieve.

Max Baybak

Makes a lot of sense. Obviously, we've seen it in action, and what you're saying — and again, I've seen this in action — is that you're not replacing the marketing coordinator or marketing point person —

Josh Suchanek

Mhm.

Max Baybak

— in the practice. You're not replacing the agency, but you are making sure that there is, which I think is so important, a marketing plan that is well aligned with the overall business plan, that understands everything on the other side of the business, that understands all the numbers and the goals of the practice owner, and then you're making sure that that's implemented.

Josh Suchanek

100%.

Max Baybak

And staying on plan.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, and I think that — don't get me wrong, when I come in to do an assessment, you meet everybody at a unique point in time, right? Like, by the time they're bringing in an expert that they're hiring to, like, assess marketing function, there's generally a level of concern, right? Like, they're like, "I'm just not sure that we're doing the right things."

And I think a lot of times, like, the person who's on the short end of that is the business owner, right? Like, they feel like, "Hey, I'm not actualizing my investment. I'm wasting money," like, is what they primarily think. And it's usually someone else's fault, right? It's like, "Oh, my marketing company isn't doing a good job." Or, "I have this marketing coordinator, and they're a great tasker, but they're not, like, a strategic thought leader. Like, they're not moving me forward." I would say, you know, 60% of the time when I'm brought in, the thought process is that someone needs to change, whether the marketing company changes or whether this marketing coordinator gets replaced.

It's not that that never happens, but a lot of times what I find out, like, within the diagnosis project is like, "Hey, you have a marketing coordinator, and the amount of responsibilities that this person has is just not realistic." Like, they're not supposed to be experts at 10 different things, right? Like, so sometimes it's just like helping align the practice on, like, "Hey, building out your internal marketing team with specific roles and responsibilities, so that way, like, they can actually succeed, you know?" It's actually — um, I have a practice I'm working on right now. It's a funny story. Um, they have one marketing director. Like, one marketing team member on their staff.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

They have 30 locations.

Max Baybak

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I've seen them many times that —

Josh Suchanek

30 locations. And the concern when I met with their team was that we don't know if we have the right person in the right seat. After meeting with her twice — so she's wonderful.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

Like, super knowledgeable, hard working. It's just impossible to keep up with 30 sets of opinions all at the same time. Like, it's not feasible, right? And so I actually got a call from the COO of that practice the other day and they said, "Hey, I see her in an entirely different light than I did previously. Like, I really respect the work that she's bringing to the table, and I realize that we haven't been putting enough support beneath her to make sure that she can get the work done she needs to." And that's a victory for me.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

Like, right? Like, I think people think I come in and I'm going to, like, pick apart a marketing company and I'm going to find you a better one. Like, "Oh, like, your marketing company sucks. You're going to go work with a premier agency and, like, we're going to move everything around." Change management is horrible.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

It adds lag time, wasted, like, sunk costs into bad investments. Like, it is much easier for me to come in and retool a strategy and keep people in place than it is to change everything for fun. Like, I don't want to do that. It's not my goal.

If I'm making the recommendation, like, "Hey, you have bad partners or the wrong people in the wrong seats, we're going to make those changes," it's 'cause I want that to be, like, clearly illustrated in, like, a data-driven decision where I'm like, "Hey, here's what I'm seeing and why I would make that choice." 'Cause if I, you know, if I bring a new customer to Influx, it's three, four, sometimes five months that we're working on a website build. If I could have spent three, four, five months retooling, like, a paid ad strategy or an SEO plan, like, that would have been much more efficient than starting over building a new website.

Max Baybak

Absolutely.

Josh Suchanek

So, I think people might look at me like I'm going to come in and be the Grim Reaper, but really I would much rather, like, foster, like, a better collaborative environment among whatever teams they have in place, if it's possible.

Max Baybak

Yeah, I agree. If you have close to the right pieces and you just need to fine-tune some things, there can be a lot of waste in coming in like a sledgehammer. And we have seen that.

Josh Suchanek

Mhm.

Max Baybak

And, um, you're right, there are probably times when there is something that's not a fit and they should get that advice if that's the case. But oftentimes there's a lot of fine-tuning. And what I've seen in our work with you is there's a lot of just — much the way you did with that one employee, where you message to their employer that, "Hey, you know, they maybe need a little more support." You're able to sit on that side and unbiasly advise them and give them some guidance and education that they need.

And it's so helpful to us also, because when a practice comes to us with a real strategy, with clear needs and wants, then we can execute around that. We all know where the goalpost is. And that alignment, uh, goes so far towards us getting great results. I mean, I say our best accounts are always the ones that resemble a partnership.

Josh Suchanek

Mhm.

Max Baybak

You know? And you can really help to bring that partnership together. That's my observation.

Josh Suchanek

It's funny, because I got into this line of work very organically, because I had a friend of mine who was a plastic surgeon and he was debating hiring, like, an internal marketing lead.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

And he said, "Hey, I've been thinking about hiring, like, a marketing director or CMO, like, VP of marketing, whatever you want to call it," right? He's like, "I just need someone who can help, like, think strategically and move things forward." And at the time, with, like, most provider-led businesses, either the doctor is the primary decision-maker, or it's, uh, delegated to an office manager who also does HR and payroll, right? Like, it's literally just, like, another hat that that person has to wear.

And so he's like, "What do you think about hiring a marketing leader?" And I was like, "I think it'd be great. I think it'd be great if you could have, uh, like, a strategic thinker on your team that could help move things forward, 'cause it's not the highest and best use of your time as a provider-led owner to, like, make those decisions."

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

And he told me, he said, "Okay, great. Um, what should this person know how to do?" Like, right, what are their qualifications? Right, 'cause I've never hired this person. What should they know how to do? And so as I was kind of going over that with them, they said, "Okay, great. Now, how should I manage them? Like, how do I know if they're doing good?" Like, what are the KPIs that I will measure? Like, and what's the meeting cadence? And what should I expect from this person?

And that really unlocked a line of thinking for me of going like, "Wow, the thing that plastic surgeons need in their practice, they've never hired and they've never managed. And then we want them to be successful." That's not reasonable.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

Right? And so the spirit of, like, me becoming a fractional CMO is like, "Well, okay, what if I could take the, you know, decade-plus experience I have in marketing plastic surgeons, and then I could collaborate with agencies like yours, and we could just have higher-level conversations and make the practice more agile and more informed?" And then it saves them time and ultimately saves them money, 'cause hiring a fractional executive is far superior to hiring a full-time employee that you've never managed before.

Max Baybak

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Suchanek

So.

Max Baybak

Oh, yeah. And the expertise that you can bring to bear. And oftentimes they're pulling in people who maybe are in marketing, and maybe they're very smart people, but they don't have the experience you have. So to be able to get a piece of that from you — and while you are only doing it on a fractional basis, it's still incredibly more valuable to them than someone who's learning the industry on the job.

Josh Suchanek

And I think another, like, value component to just, like, our offering in general is it's month to month.

Max Baybak

Right.

Josh Suchanek

Like, meaning like, "Hey, I want people to utilize our services as long as they feel like they're valuable." Like, if we're providing great value and you want to continue to pay for it, awesome. But I have practices that I've been in that were supposed to be temporary, and I've been there for three-plus years. And I have practices who are just like, "Okay, we're in the middle of switching our web team. This website project, getting everything up and running, this is going to be like a six-month sprint that we just don't have capacity for. Can you come help with that?"

Max Baybak

Yeah.

Josh Suchanek

And then I'm there for six, seven months and I'm on my way. And my goal is to just leave a practice better than I found it.

Max Baybak

Yeah.

Josh Suchanek

Right. And that's another, like, thing is, you know — and I think you guys kind of, like, uh, lean into the same spirit as well — is like, everything that I would encourage a practice to do, like, implement a piece of technology, sign with a new vendor, those relationships and the assets they buy belong to them. Meaning, like, I'm trying to build a system that far outlives my relationship with any practice. Like, if I can fast forward two years down the road and I found them a quality marketing partner and their business is succeeding, like, after I've left, then I'm, like, a happy camper, you know? Like, 'cause that's the goal, is just get them where they need to go. What does this person need today? And if I can help deliver that, then I will.

Max Baybak

Yeah, well, I've seen you do it, and you have, as you said, a wealth of information to tap into, uh, with your experience specifically in plastic surgery marketing. And I think you need to really have deep, deep industry knowledge to be able to kind of jump in the way that you do into all of these different situations and understand the nuances of what this practice needs versus that practice. "Okay, good. Six-month sprint. Hey, we might need to be with you a little bit longer." But to be able to tailor that — to really tailor your services to practices at different phases is really cool and takes someone who can really think flexibly.

But that brings me to another question, which is: do practices come to you when they're obviously — you mentioned there may be some crisis management, there's some concern — but also when they may be looking to get — obviously Skytale's other side of Skytale's business is sell-side investment banking. Do they also come to you looking to shore up their marketing before going out to market? Is that specifically a service, or is it really separated?

Josh Suchanek

You know, at Skytale there's a different, like, separation of church and state when it comes to investment banking. Like, we even work with, like, code names internally just for regulation purposes. Like, we try not to talk about who we're working with on what, and there's, like, a level of, you know, integrity and privacy that happens with that.

But I will say that, like, people do come to me at, like, different components. Sometimes it's the — oftentimes it's the pain point, right? Like, "I'm concerned something's not working." Sometimes it's, you know — I just had a great conversation a couple of days ago with a facial plastic surgeon, really established facial plastic surgeon practice. They've been in practice for 15 years, have always done facelifts, rhinoplasties, brow lifts, right? And they were like, "You know what? We're adding a breast and body surgeon."

So it's an entirely new capability. Like, they've marketed plastic surgery, but they've always been a facial plastic surgery clinic. How do — what's the go-to-market strategy for that? "We've never run ads for it. We've never had to generate content for it. We have no idea what the competitive landscape looks like for it. So, like, can you help us with, like, a go-to-market strategy for a new service line?" So that happens a lot, like —

Max Baybak

Be really project-based in that way.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, really it's everybody, like, you know, um — Annie at Skytale always says, like, you know, "What does this person need?" And so kind of going into — when we go into conversations with, you know, surgeons or medical spa owners, it's really, like, my goal is to approach it with a sense of curiosity, because, like, it might be some very niche need that, like, maybe I've solved a version of for somebody else, and how can I build upon, like, in my experience, like, help them solve that problem faster.

Max Baybak

That's a really valuable service, to ask that question, "What do they need?" And again, to be able to fluidly think with, "Okay, they need this, therefore their strategic plan might look a little different than my other clients." And in many cases, the misalignment that I'm sure you're resolving is because with any service — an agency, namely here — when you're a hammer, everything's a nail. And if the client has not effectively conveyed what they need —

Josh Suchanek

Mhm.

Max Baybak

— then they might just not be getting what they need. So if you're making sure that's occurring, then they can often — "Oh, okay, that's what you need, we got you" — and then you can really drive alignment that way.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, and I think, like, it's kind of problem-solving as a whole, right? 'Cause, like, I talked earlier about how, like, the problems that they're experiencing, or, like, even, like, the perceived problems — like, they're real. Everyone's opinion's valid, right? But if the outcome is like, "Oh, well, I'm only doing these things 'cause I think it'll make me busier," like, well, like, maybe those are the things you need to do, but, like, wait, there's also all of these other opportunities that we could explore, right?

And sometimes it just takes stepping back a little bit and, like, asking the right questions and really hearing people. Like, if I just bulldozed into every practice and was like, "Oh, you're going to do X, Y, and Z. Like, I fired up ads here, there, and everywhere, and now look, you're going to be busy" — like, that would make me a really bad problem-solver, right? Like, it's not any level of sort of intentionality to it.

Max Baybak

Yeah.

Josh Suchanek

And I think that there's a level of fatigue — you guys obviously probably seen it at Influx — is like, you know, how many conversations have you had this weekend with people who are just like, "Yeah, not sure that my marketing company's doing a good job, and I just want to see what you have to offer." Like, that's the entire —

Max Baybak

We try to discourage that level of, you know, that lack of sophistication in approach, because I think that is common, you know, to say, "Let me just try a different marketing company," 'cause there's not enough maybe nuanced understanding to think about it differently. Just try something different. But they're going to run into the same problem again.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, so I guess, too, is like, putting my position — switching the roles a little bit as interviewer here. Like —

Max Baybak

Yeah, let's go.

Josh Suchanek

Just curious, like, you know, what percentage of Influx's customers would you say that you're either someone's second or third marketing company?

Max Baybak

Oh gosh. These days it's a high percentage. It's well over 50%.

Josh Suchanek

Going to say it's got to be way over 50%.

Max Baybak

Yes, it is. It is for sure. We are definitely oftentimes not their first. And honestly, I'll say this candidly, when we are their first, we know that they're figuring out a lot of things. There is value in them having understood what else is out there. I will just put it that way.

Josh Suchanek

I agree, wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly. Um, you kind of appreciate things from a different set of lenses when you've had a poor experience in the past.

Max Baybak

Yeah, and when you understand, again, that it does need to be a partnership, mostly so we understand the nuances of your practice and we're not simply just painting with one big broad brush the same we do for all clients. And it's amazing — this to me is where I do think AI is already playing a huge role in what we do, but there are certain things that it has not fundamentally touched, and certain things I think it'll take a while. Because you would think — we do a certain set of things. We are very good with certain marketing channels.

Josh Suchanek

Mhm.

Max Baybak

And we can apply — there's only certain things that are good to be outsourced. So we say these are the ones that work well in an outsourced capacity. So we say these are the things we focus on. But it's amazing how much of a nuanced approach we still have to take to each of those channels based on the particular set of needs for each — just the complexion of that business, which is the thing you take the time to understand. We try to do that as well, but you're able to enhance that even more so when you come in.

But it's just painting with broad brushes, and I just think about this in relation to AI. It's going to take a long time for it to — 'cause marketing, when you really take a broad approach, it just falls short. And that's kind of the highlight that I'm hearing in this conversation, is we can't just do the same thing —

Josh Suchanek

Yeah.

Max Baybak

— for everybody and sort of treat everyone in a cookie-cutter capacity.

Josh Suchanek

Well, also too, um, if you want a different result, then you have to try new things, right? Like, it's like — so —

Max Baybak

Yes, yes, yes.

Josh Suchanek

I can't say to you how many people I've talked to where I've talked to them, they're concerned about their marketing, and then I come up with a strategic plan, and then they don't act on the strategic guidance, and then they come back three months later and, like, "Yeah, like, it's still not really working." And it's like, "Well, we're still not doing anything different. We're actually doing everything exactly the same." Um, and so —

Max Baybak

Mhm. Sometimes it's so simple.

Josh Suchanek

It could be. It could be. But truth is, too, like — like, you bring up AI, and so I think that this is interesting. I've sat in a lot of the talks here this week about, like, generative search and, like, you know, AI-based searching, where that data is pulled. And I sat on a panel today with someone who was talking about how, like, you know, Reddit is, like, the best place to maximize, like, your ChatGPT results. It's not untrue.

Max Baybak

Yeah.

Josh Suchanek

But then the question is like, well, how do you systematically attack Reddit with marketing-related content to support that type of search, right? That, like, the tactic is what people are looking for. Everybody knows the information, they don't know how to —

Max Baybak

Right.

Josh Suchanek

And so this is something you and I have talked about previously, of, like, trying to develop a Reddit strategy. I have, like, a new hypothesis right now, like, and I haven't bounced this off anybody. So I'm actually just bouncing — this makes it in here or not, like, I'm interested in it. So I was thinking about RealSelf the other day.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

And I was thinking, okay, well, remember, like, when RealSelf was just, like, this titan of traffic, right? Like, it generated so much visibility.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

And then the Medic update happened and they got kind of crushed by that, and, like, that's why I said I wouldn't put this in here. But, like, I was thinking, like, what made it valuable? And it was the peer-supported, like, knowledge. Like, it was the amount of questions being answered, right? Like, and that had a ton of value.

And surgeons weren't necessarily answering questions in a way that marketed their business, they were just providing, like, authoritative perspective on real patient inquiries. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and that was cool.

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

Like, that was a cool component. It was a taxing component, 'cause doctors had to get in there and answer questions. It was kind of a pain in the butt. But the more questions you answered, the more authority your profile had, and there was kind of this just natural synergistic momentum that got built, right?

Max Baybak

Mhm.

Josh Suchanek

So I was thinking about Reddit the other day, and I was thinking, like, what if doctors just had profiles and they engaged in answering questions that had nothing to do with promoting their practice, and they just provided, like, authoritative knowledge via Reddit?

Max Baybak

I think — did we talk about this in Vegas when we had that dinner and we were talking about what people can — what can people do to build up a presence on Reddit?

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, so we talked about what people can do on Reddit, and we talked about how can you, like, develop and deploy AI strategy specifically towards Reddit. And at the time I thought, like, whether it's like generating, like — so, it wasn't specifically, but it was like, "Oh, how do you almost generate, like, blogs or articles specifically for Reddit?" And now what I'm thinking is like — like, if you go to, like, "women over 40," like, targeting aesthetic treatments, there's, like, entire threads of people asking questions about areas you can put Botox and how effective is this treatment. And you as a provider —

Max Baybak

Yes.

Josh Suchanek

— can go contribute your, like, your opinion in there without saying, like, "Hey, go to my practice," right? It can just be like, "Hey, I'm just knowledge sharing." And so my thought process was is, like, if the doctor or provider or the practice had a profile and they just contributed, like, you know, authoritative insights to the questions that real people were answering, would over time that develop, like, a synergistic outcome with, like, better AI visibility? I don't know that.

Max Baybak

Well, I think — I love where your head's at, because I've given people similar advice. Because obviously what Josh is referring to here is Reddit is a data partner for ChatGPT or OpenAI. And so a lot of times the data that's on Reddit makes its way into search results, into their AI results. Also, I just saw something the other day that said Google is now indexing actual Reddit results independently. So, the data on Reddit — really the questions and answers that kind of happen on these Reddit forums or their subreddits — is really valuable towards getting your practice, your brand, your voice in in generative search results.

Josh Suchanek

Mhm.

Max Baybak

And so, but the thing is, if you try to spam that, Reddit will filter that. So, if you try to have people go on there and mention your name and your business and link back to you, Reddit will figure that out. They're very good at that.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah.

Max Baybak

So, Josh is looking for a way to build up a presence on Reddit. There are people who organically — we have a surgeon who ranks very well and he has a lot of his past patients sharing the results and organically actually talking about him on Reddit. So, that happens to work out well. So, how do you foster that?

You could try to incentivize patients to go have conversations there, but I agree with you. I've said create a Reddit account, make sure that your business name or your name as a provider is in there. I don't have any concrete evidence, but I think that you've got to correlate it to yourself somehow, and go in there and take a, uh, RealSelf-type approach and just answer these questions magnanimously. It's not a matter of self-promotion. Just put yourself there. There may be opportunities to link to a before and after on your website or something. I'm not saying they won't filter that out. I don't know. Or to a blog article on your website to answer a question more thoroughly. But I think this is a good starting point.

Unfortunately, these aren't things that scale very well, and that was what was hard with RealSelf. I remember physicians saying, "Gosh, I feel like I have to sit there and answer questions forever." Surgeons, um, and I think some of them did begin to sour, feeling like all of their expertise was maybe being — they weren't being remunerated enough to make the — the incentive wasn't there for them to keep doing it, unfortunately, especially when things changed and went a little south there rankings-wise for RealSelf.

But I think for Reddit, yeah, it's not something you can outsource to an agency. You need to answer as a provider. The other thing we've seen work, and we've helped some surgeons do this, is AMAs, the "ask me anything." We try to pick a controversial subject, schedule an AMA, or a subject that has a lot of interest that would perhaps drive some debate, and they do an ask me anything, which is sort of a hosted forum, open question and answer, open Q&A, on a subject where people want to talk to a subject matter expert. We've generated a lot of traffic to websites and a lot of chatter about that surgeon through doing this. So, those are two tactics that work well on Reddit. Hard to scale out to an agency, so we advise them to do it, but we can't really do it for them.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, so what I've been doing in the practices that I've been, like, beta testing this idea, is I am going through on a weekly basis and aggregating, like, questions that I think are applicable to their knowledge, like, my provider's knowledge. And then what I'm doing is once a week sending, "Hey, here are six or seven really relevant topics that if you have the capacity to contribute to, I think would be very valuable." And then encouraging them to take 30 minutes on a Friday to just go in and crank out answering those questions. So, I'm trying to do the fostering of, like, an aggregating of the questions I want them to answer. And then trying to put it in their court to do that.

Max Baybak

It's a good idea.

Josh Suchanek

I'm only testing this in a couple of areas, but kind of intentionally, because I have no proof that it will work, right? Like —

Max Baybak

Makes sense.

Josh Suchanek

But I just — you know, generally, like, when you work in marketing as long as we have, like, there's indications that things will work, right? And this has legs to me. Like, it's —

Max Baybak

I agree. I think I would love to stay in touch on this and track how that goes. I think there was a tool back in the day that would help you to find questions on Reddit and other forums, Quora for example, and any other random forum, with a certain keyword. So, it'd be interesting with AI to build something that helps you to just jump to the next question and answer quick. And like you said, do that queuing up work that you're doing. That's really smart. That's at least one way to make it a little easier.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, so what I'm doing for the customers that I have that I'm testing this on right now, what I've been doing is monitoring, like, their AI mentions and citations and visibility. And then I'm just tracking how that improves over time as they contribute. Um, it's a two-way street. Like, I can do the work to foster the questions. I can put them in front of them. I can encourage them to create structure around follow-through. I can even measure the outcomes. They still have to participate, right?

Max Baybak

Yeah, they would have to.

Josh Suchanek

And that's really with any marketing program that you're doing. Like, there's no real hands-off approach completely.

Max Baybak

That's what I mean by the partnership aspect.

Josh Suchanek

To partner with you and be willing to do it.

Max Baybak

And I'll just tell you this: to the degree that you're hands-off is the same degree that your marketing — that someone else, that your competitor could be doing a better job than you. Because you can do it on a more outsourced basis, but it only impairs your marketing to the degree that you're not involved. And to the degree that you are able to be involved, we're going to be able to more accurately represent you. We're going to be able to really make sure that it's aligned with everything you do in your practice.

Um, by the way, on AI rankings and checking their share of voice on those things, that's a whole new kind of nascent world that there's not a perfect — you know, there's not a perfect standard for how that works yet. We're working on some things. We're working with a partner in the AEO ranking world that's pretty interesting, because we think that there's a strong need to standardize how you actually measure that. And that's not even perfect, because every time you search it's different. So, how do you figure out the true share of voice?

And ChatGPT and these other companies are not necessarily sharing that information. They are not sharing that information of, you know, every time a certain keyword was searched, how many times did your business show up? So, it takes a lot of process of sort of elimination, deduction, powers of deduction that have to come into play there. So, we're working on some interesting things in that area, too, which I'll tell you about more as we progress.

Josh Suchanek

Uh, as you feel willing to share them, I will be willing to listen.

Max Baybak

Yes, I will definitely share. Okay, before we wrap it up — and we're doing mini, little mini episodes. This has turned into more than a mini episode, but you and I have lots to talk about, so I'm not surprised. But, um, you're working on something new that you've been kind enough to include us in, which is the Aesthetic — tell me again — the Aesthetic Collective. Aesthetic Growth Collective. Aesthetic Growth Collective. I was thinking on the name "growth." And, um, we're excited to be affiliated with it, but I would love to talk about that a little bit as a final thing here before we close out. Will you tell us about it?

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, we have, uh, a number of really great strategic partners that we've, you know, tapped into to work on this with us. We have obviously Influx. We have Liine, who is an AI-powered marketing attribution and call tracking platform we work with. Fifth & Cor, who's kind of bringing their perspective on the social media and PR development. And then Pinpoint Creative, who's, I think, largely considered the best branding group within the aesthetics industry. So, we've got some heavy hitters, uh, kind of contributing to our curriculum.

Um, the idea of the Aesthetics Growth Collective, like, the spirit of it, is trying to create focused learning environments to tackle, like, new and complex marketing, like, topics, and then creating small groups of practices where they are paired with other non-competitive practices. And so, uh, to give a very, like, tangible example, if you have a four-location, you know, practice in South Florida and you're a med spa and you do 10 to 12 million in revenue, we're trying to pair you with other multi-location med spas at similar revenue numbers that might be in New York or Chicago or, you know, South Carolina.

And the idea is, yes, you can come and have, you know, focused learning time from subject matter experts like me and the sponsors that we have, but also, it's a networking opportunity to bounce ideas and problem-solving statements off of other practice owners that are built similarly to themselves. And I think that really what I started to feel like is just, like, there's so much power in knowledge sharing. Like, learning from other people's mistakes. Like, there's so much power in that and no one really fosters an environment for people to do that, right?

Like, and so, when something doesn't exist — we talked about this earlier — my motivation is to say, "Cool, let's make it." Like, it doesn't exist, so let's make it ourselves, right? And, um, that's part of Skytale's broader vision, to be associated as a thought leader within the market. And so, to be a thought leader, you have to lead, right? And so, I felt really strongly about making this program.

Um, applications for it have been coming in and interest seems very high. I think we're going to be coming up with — if I'm not mistaken, about at least three or four segmented cohorts to start our curriculum plan in June, which is very, very exciting. Still room for more applicants, so we could always talk about that. But the idea here is that we want to give you a focused environment to get thought leadership, tackle complex subjects, hear from, uh, you know, your like-minded peers, and then hopefully what you do is you feel like you have a safe space to learn and grow your practice.

Max Baybak

That's great. So, where do people — if they do want to apply, you said applications are still open — where do they go?

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, applications are still open. We're going to be accepting applications through the end of this month. Um, if they want to apply, they can go to skytalegroup.com. Um, or obviously if they're, uh, you know, a customer or affiliated with Influx, Pinpoint, Fifth & Cor, or Liine, um, could always get great information about being able to join the program. Uh, it's designed to be very affordable. Uh, you know, we wanted it to be an accessible, you know, group that people could join, um, and then, you know, we feel really strongly about the curriculum plan that we've put together. It's a six-month program.

Max Baybak

Cool.

Josh Suchanek

Um, that is a six-month commitment. We're trying to make sure, like, the integrity of each cohort is respected. We don't want people who are coming in and be like, "Oh, I'll just watch the session online." It's like, "No, like, we need you to come to the group and contribute and knowledge share." Like, that's part of the value. So, we are screening all applicants and making sure that they're fit and committed to the program. And so far, we've got, um, a lot of really, really strong applicants.

Max Baybak

That's great. I think it's something this space needs. I think the way that you're making sure that people can have peers to share with, but they're not in the same market, is very wise. And then I also think there's a lot of random information being thrown around in the space, whether it be through a webinar or a blog or coming to a conference, but to have it actually built into a linear curriculum is, I think, probably going to be a great value. And then adding in the peer sort of mastermind group aspect of it — really cool.

Josh Suchanek

It's all going to be virtual, so it's six virtual sessions. They'll all be about 90 minutes in length. And so, it's a pretty, like, you know, digestible and, like, it's an agreeable set of time that people can lend. But we are doing one in-person session that'll be held at our HQ in Dallas, and that'll be a power session. It'll be six hours in length, but it'll be all dedicated to AEO, GEO, SEO. So we're working on getting Erica involved in that curriculum as well.

What I thought about was part of the spirit of getting sponsors like yourselves to participate was, I don't think anybody wants to listen to me talk for six hours. Like, right? Like, it's — I think I'm pretty fun and interesting, but I don't think anybody wants to listen to me talk for six hours.

Max Baybak

You have a wealth of knowledge to share, but I do think the breakup and getting different subject matter experts is a great idea.

Josh Suchanek

Different perspectives and, like, obviously different sets of experiences. And there's like, you know, um, I think that even myself, like, I'm never the smartest person in the room. Like, I shouldn't be, right? Like, there's people that you can learn from. And so that's why people listen to podcasts. That's why they go to the talks, 'cause they're looking for a nugget, right? And so if you come to our cohort, whether you get a nugget from me or one of our sponsors or another member of the group, then it'll be valuable.

Max Baybak

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so then if people — okay, great, so you can check that out at skytale.com. Skytale.com.

Josh Suchanek

Skytalegroup.com.

Max Baybak

Group.com. Thank you, sorry I forgot. If people want to learn more about the fractional CMO services, do they go there or do they reach out to you directly?

Josh Suchanek

They can also go to skytalegroup.com. We have a lot of information about our marketing advisory practice. We talk about our marketing evaluations. We talk about sort of the fractional CMO work that we do. We have some case studies involved in that of how we've helped people. But then obviously people can reach out to me directly. I'm always happy to learn about the problems plaguing a practice related to marketing, and if I could be a resource for them, then I love that.

Max Baybak

Great. Where do they find you? If they want to reach out directly, do you want them to reach out directly, or do you want to just go to skytalegroup.com?

Josh Suchanek

Go to skytalegroup.com. Find me on LinkedIn.

Max Baybak

Perfect.

Josh Suchanek

Yeah, I'll be around.

Max Baybak

Good. Thank you so much for your time, Josh. I appreciate it. This was really cool. We should do a follow-up, talk about all of these things — the AI tracking, the Reddit stuff, and, um, and the Aesthetic Growth —

Josh Suchanek

Collective.

Max Baybak

— Collective, 'cause I'm really excited to be a part of that too.

Josh Suchanek

Thank you, Max.